Flyingfetz

It's been a pleasure trading back and forth. Probably got some of my facts messed up. You got me digging a little more deeply into the Bible, which is good as I have been getting a real lazy lately. I guess disagreeing has it's good points. But I get this strange feeling that both of us were right all along.

Anyway, maybe we will chat again someday.

May God richly bless....Jeff

Jeffk56barker:

On that we agree. May the world see the love of a Holy God through you.

Which brings us to the concludion that man is incapable of governing himself. Is not capable to obey the laws of God and never will be (not on this earth anyway). Will always be at war with one another with increasing intensity and bloodshed to the point of destroying mankind completely (which the Lord said man would do unless He stepped in).

I myself wonder at times why God bothered to create us in the first place, knowing exactly what the outcome would be before He started it all. In my limited ability to understand, We were created for His pleasure, creatures to love and be loved in return. But He didn't want robots, so he gave man free choice. Light or darkness, Heaven or hell. Most will choose darkness and only a few will enter the kingdom of God. Remember, God said He chose you, you didn't choose Him. That doesn't mean He created most of mankind (per-ordained)to go to hell. Man must choose, for or against. The Lord just happens to know which way you will go.

3. Again, God has not changed, the institutions have. There is ZERO relevance between a democratic republic such as the United States, or the arbitrarily created nation-state of Israel that came into existence as a result of the nation building following World War II, and the situation with Saul (you are correct it was Saul) where God spoke directly to a KING, in a THEOCRACY, ordained by a PROPHET, of which Saul disobeyed.

War never leads to peace. It both logically makes no sense, and historically it is an illusion. WWI lead to WWII (the instability created in Germany, and Europe in general allowed Hitler to rise to power), WWII lead to the constant series of small wars we have had as a result of nation building (including the current one in question). Contrast that with Ghandi, or MLK, nonviolent resistance creates a moral conversation that ceases the moment you pick up a weapon.

1. Nations, as secular institutions, are not guided by the Law of the Lord, and therefore what they have a "right" to do is of no consequence what we as followers of Christ are CALLED to do.
2. I do not own a shotgun and therefore would not put myself in that position. One way or another, I believe that I am called to rely on the power of a Living God to protect my family and myself, not my own use of force. In the extremely unlikely situation, of which I believe has no relevance to the discussion at hand, I firmly believe I am called to find a solution to this situation without the use of violence. That man would be considered my enemy/neighbor regardless of the circumstances, and Christ's command to me is very clear. Now whether I could follow through on that command in a horrible situation like that, I pray I never have to find out. But this would be no different than any other command that Jesus gave that I constantly wrestle with in practice.

Yes, Jesus said love your enemies, But He didn't say you had no right to self-defence or defence of your family. Say a man broke into your home and was in the process of killing your child, And you had a shotgun. My guess is that you would spatter that guy all over the walls to save your child and not give it a second thought. At no time did Jesus say you can't kill someone who is trying to kill you.
Same with nations. You forget that God Himself commanded one of the kings(forgot which one,I think it was Saul) to kill every man, woman, and child, and all the livestock. Take nothing as spoils of war. He disobeyed. Had he obeyed God, The middle-east would not be having these problems. It doesn't matter that this happened in the old testament times. God doesn't change and Jesus is God.

Should my Lord call me to climb on a white horse and usher in the final days, I will have no choice but to obey. But this hardly relates to war between nations. Christ commanded clearly, both in word and deed, to love your enemies; as did His disciples. Any call to bear arms should be equally as clear, and not a reference to the final days. I looked out my window but have not seen the Lord yet coming in wrath and might. Therefore, our call is to build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, which is very clearly described as one of peace, love, and joy. There is no doubt that this calling is difficult and will make us outcasts from the culture at large, but then again that is simply an argument for the validity of nonviolence.

Ezekiel Chapter 38 thru 39

Revelation Chapter 16 thru 20

As a matter of fact, read all of both these books and you will see how it all ends. There is nothing me or you can do about it. It's a done deal. Just know that He is God and He is in control. This was all planned before the beginning of time. The Lord already knew all of this was going to happen. There is no surprises for God.

Anyway, we won't be here when this go's down. And who knows, we just might be on one of those white horses in the army of God. (Revelation 19:14)

May God Bless... Jeff

This is not a question of if and how the end times will occur. It is a question of whether disciples of Jesus should be the ones promoting the wars and pulling the triggers. Show me the scripture that says followers of Christ should wage war and cause the bloodbath. Show me the scripture that says the followers of the Prince of Peace are the ones that should pick up their arms, because there are plenty from our Lord that say we should be the ones to put them down.

Let the Lord judge, let the Lord work His wrath and judgment upon those He wishes, and through who He wishes. Let's not forget that the Lord cut down Israel many times using pagan nations. Let us not think we know better than the Lord as to who should win or lose, rather let the the Body of Christ be the city on a hill. Let others see the hope of salvation in us.

So you take it upon yourself to override the word of God. That your a better judge of Israel than He is? The bible states that in the end times, God himself will destroy Israel's enemies and gather Israel to Himself. All this takes place in a valley called "Armageddon" A bloodbath the world has never seen or will see again. It will take Israel 7 months to bury the dead. God doesn't change his mind. He is the same, yesterday, today, forever.

To believe that the nation state of Israel that exists today even remotely resembles the Israel you read in your Bible is extraordinarily naive. I have no doubt that God is just, loving, and many will feel the wrath of a holy God; however, the armies of this world are not the same as the armies that followed a king appointed by God's prophets.

And when all is said and done, we will answer to that Just God for what he called the greatest commandments (Luke 10), and He will separate us as sheep and goats (Matt 25) not according to our interpretation of the Just War Theory, but according to how we loved those that Jesus loved (even the Samaritan).

Dear All, we all feel grief about the lives lost in Gaza. However we must understand that Hamas instigated this war. Israel is only protecting its citizens. For the writer that said that God does not favour Israel, please read your bible again. God favours Israel because of His covenant with Abraham. We are the children of Abraham by the blood of Jesus, but we are the gentile church. Israel has a covenant with God which can not be broken.*Genesis 15;17:1-22; Micah 7:20; Luke 1:73; Romans 4:13;15:8;) *(Jeremiah 3:17) are just a few scriptures you can read.We have been commanded to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Revelations clearly states that God still has a plan for Israel in these end times. Please read the book of Romans as well.We Christians have made the mistake of putting God in a box. While God is a God of love, He is also a God of justice.We must never forget that. Any theology that suggests otherwise is a faulty theology and does not represent the character of God! SELAH!