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Hjordes
8/27/2007 11:21 AM
AllGrownUp... wow... sounds as condescending and intolerant as a lot of Christians, Muslims, and pundits I know...
Adhere to my belief system/religion/political party or you're an idiot. End of discussion.
AllGrownUp is giving a great plug for John's last book, "I'm O.K., You're Not."
LOL
Adhere to my belief system/religion/political party or you're an idiot. End of discussion.
AllGrownUp is giving a great plug for John's last book, "I'm O.K., You're Not."
LOL
AllGrownUp
8/26/2007 4:24 PM
Even though I know that as part of our evolutionary history, it's natural for people to indulge in supernatural beliefs - even, in some cases, essential for their survival - it amazes me how people can be so gullible as to believe in a "god" for which there is no hard evidence whatsoever. Please, people, in the *modern* world we live in, religion is more likely to weaken or destroy us than to help us solve modern problems. For the good of humanity, grow up, take responsibility for yourself, and realize that if there is any entity in the universe more powerful than humanity, we haven't made contact with it yet.
JohnShore
8/26/2007 1:42 AM
I'm sorry; I left that last thought split and dangling. (I ran out of available "characters"!)
Reasoning-wise, I just meant this: Yin and yang perfectly and comprehensively symbolize reality, and no doubt about that. But we still need relief--we still need to do battle with--our "dark" characteristics, because that's the stuff that hurts others and poisons our own experience.
It's been my experience that ultimately people need to access a power beyond themselves in order to (in an ongoing, dependable sense) satisfactorily come to terms with that within them that all too often, by their own volition, results in guilt, pain, and remorse.
Basically, I'm saying no one can effectively forgive themselves. And everyone KNOWS they need forgiveness for the times they behave hurtfully towards others. Not being able to forgive themselves is a REAL problem for people.
Jesus is the answer to that problem. That's ... the glory of the Christian system.
Reasoning-wise, I just meant this: Yin and yang perfectly and comprehensively symbolize reality, and no doubt about that. But we still need relief--we still need to do battle with--our "dark" characteristics, because that's the stuff that hurts others and poisons our own experience.
It's been my experience that ultimately people need to access a power beyond themselves in order to (in an ongoing, dependable sense) satisfactorily come to terms with that within them that all too often, by their own volition, results in guilt, pain, and remorse.
Basically, I'm saying no one can effectively forgive themselves. And everyone KNOWS they need forgiveness for the times they behave hurtfully towards others. Not being able to forgive themselves is a REAL problem for people.
Jesus is the answer to that problem. That's ... the glory of the Christian system.
JohnShore
8/25/2007 7:01 PM
Yes, Hjordes, you've said it perfectly. Again.
Brian: Stop being such a hippy. (Everyone: I know Brian. He's quite the Major TV Personality. Oh, no! Member of the Liberal Media amongst us! Run, everyone!)
I'm actually very down with what you've said here, Brian. For some 20 years before I became a Christian, I studied/practiced yoga and, particularly, Zen Buddhism.
For sure, you can't have bad without good, and visa-versa. All in all, and ...all that. But that fact doesn't actually address my point, which is that the bad STILL ... bites. It's still extremely unpleasant to have in and with and near and beside and CAUSED by you.
And (I believe) you need something BEYOND yourself to alleviate yourself of the guilt you feel for the "bad" you do/are/cause. The Eastern beliefs are founded upon the idea that everyone contains within themselves everything they need to acheive Nirvana, to (in effect) merge with God.
My simple,humble experience tells me that's not true.
Brian: Stop being such a hippy. (Everyone: I know Brian. He's quite the Major TV Personality. Oh, no! Member of the Liberal Media amongst us! Run, everyone!)
I'm actually very down with what you've said here, Brian. For some 20 years before I became a Christian, I studied/practiced yoga and, particularly, Zen Buddhism.
For sure, you can't have bad without good, and visa-versa. All in all, and ...all that. But that fact doesn't actually address my point, which is that the bad STILL ... bites. It's still extremely unpleasant to have in and with and near and beside and CAUSED by you.
And (I believe) you need something BEYOND yourself to alleviate yourself of the guilt you feel for the "bad" you do/are/cause. The Eastern beliefs are founded upon the idea that everyone contains within themselves everything they need to acheive Nirvana, to (in effect) merge with God.
My simple,humble experience tells me that's not true.
Hjordes
8/25/2007 4:33 PM
Hi John,
Brian has an excellent point when he says, "The Yin and the Yang teach us we can't have one without the other." But I think you said the same thing in a different way... we can't change being human; we are a mixture of both "good/bad," "yin/yang," "light/darkness." The confusion comes in the term "core." Now we're stepping into all sorts of philosophical conundrums, so let's not go there.
Can yoga/Quabbalah/Jesus/Buddhism/skydiving affect a person positively? Can they all influence us to better actions? Can they encourage serenity, stress relief, or clearer vision? Yep. Can they all change the core of who we are?
I don't know. As an adventurer, I've explored many of these paths - and more - toward enlightenment (or fun). I have received good value from each and every one.
Jesus is... different. Kind of... backwards. All of my adventures have added to my understanding of life. Jesus added me to HIS life. I'm IN him. Everything else is in me.
Good and bad.
Brian has an excellent point when he says, "The Yin and the Yang teach us we can't have one without the other." But I think you said the same thing in a different way... we can't change being human; we are a mixture of both "good/bad," "yin/yang," "light/darkness." The confusion comes in the term "core." Now we're stepping into all sorts of philosophical conundrums, so let's not go there.
Can yoga/Quabbalah/Jesus/Buddhism/skydiving affect a person positively? Can they all influence us to better actions? Can they encourage serenity, stress relief, or clearer vision? Yep. Can they all change the core of who we are?
I don't know. As an adventurer, I've explored many of these paths - and more - toward enlightenment (or fun). I have received good value from each and every one.
Jesus is... different. Kind of... backwards. All of my adventures have added to my understanding of life. Jesus added me to HIS life. I'm IN him. Everything else is in me.
Good and bad.
smi23le
8/25/2007 3:20 PM
John:
What evidence do you have that, "you can't change your core nature by yourself."? No one ever has? Really?
Psychologist Ralph Metzner has written extensively about a wide variety of transformative experiences that people have had under a wide variety of circumstance. I suspect there are people for whom yoga has worked. Some prefer forms of meditation. Some make up their own disciplines. Are you really ready to tell me and Sarah that every single solitary one of these are bogus? Delusional? Satanic? Just because it's not YOUR path.
While I am no more an adept of Eastern Religions than I am of the Occidental brands, if Sarah does study yoga and meditation, she'll learn that you can't separate out the "Bad You" from the "Good You". The good is in the bad is in the good. The Yin and the Yang teach us we can't have one without the other.
Christ may be the ONLY path to your form of "salvation" but it is clearly, to me, not the only path "changing your life"
Brian
What evidence do you have that, "you can't change your core nature by yourself."? No one ever has? Really?
Psychologist Ralph Metzner has written extensively about a wide variety of transformative experiences that people have had under a wide variety of circumstance. I suspect there are people for whom yoga has worked. Some prefer forms of meditation. Some make up their own disciplines. Are you really ready to tell me and Sarah that every single solitary one of these are bogus? Delusional? Satanic? Just because it's not YOUR path.
While I am no more an adept of Eastern Religions than I am of the Occidental brands, if Sarah does study yoga and meditation, she'll learn that you can't separate out the "Bad You" from the "Good You". The good is in the bad is in the good. The Yin and the Yang teach us we can't have one without the other.
Christ may be the ONLY path to your form of "salvation" but it is clearly, to me, not the only path "changing your life"
Brian
Must you be SO much more perspicacious than so very, very many other people?
Martin Luther, Martin Luther King Jr., Galileo, Isaac Newton, Albert Schweitzer, Lincoln, Tolstoy, Bach, Dostoeyevsky, Chaucer, Milton, Capernicus, Francis Bacon, T.S. Eliot, Dickens, Churchhill--are they all nothing more than ... gullible?
Really?
Isn' it just POSSIBLE--and I mean this seriously, in all respect--that when you say, "... if there is any entity in the universe more powerful than humanity, we haven't made contact with it yet," what that only means is that YOU'VE never had an experience that you registered as an encounter with something "more powerful than humanity"?.