I know that fellow Mormons are not happy about this, but it's true, we are NOT Protestant, technically.

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aka a "Mormon." The article seems to state that Mormons do not accept Christ as the Savior. The truth is that our Savior Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of the world who took our sins upon Himself, is the very center of Mormon doctrine. We believe whole-heartedly that Christ lived, that He died for us and atoned for our sins, and that he rose again. Literally. If you want to know the truth about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I recommend looking at www.mormon.org.

Considering the fact that all branches of Christianity were one at the time of Christ, who gives you or anyone the right to decide who is a Christian? Christianity as a whole did not even know what it believed until the time of the Nicean Council when it was voted upon. Issues like the trinity, the godhead and such seem to be something that should not be up for a vote! After that time slivers of faiths broke off the massive Christian church, this made sense since all of these people believed different things. The LDS Church is similar to all these break offs, the only difference is they go back to how things were in the day of Christ. Because a religion is seen as not Protestant does not mean anything, except that it is not protestant neither is Catholicism. I am very concerned that you would have the audacity to say that because you believe in Christ does not make you a Christian, well what does. Believing in a creed that arose hundreds of years after Christianity began.

JP,

Well, you've actually asked 2 questions.

First, regarding the various denominations WITHIN Christianity, these groups -- although they tend to various side issues differently -- do actually believe in the same, one, true God. (although now with the rather alarming divergence of some ultra-liberal churches, that is changing).

Second, as for Mormonism, it is not the same God AT ALL. They have a radically different perspective of God, Jesus, and salvation based on the revelations of Joseph Smith -- as different as the views of a Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist.

RA

It leads to a qestion Ive thought about for a long time why do we have names lie mormons or baptist cathlic? We all belive in the same GOD yet we tag areselfs with these names woudnt it be easyer to say we are chirtians who worship the one true god and drop the name tag. could someone anser this? look forward to hering from some one.

A STAR:
"And I saw the STARS, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob" (Official LDS scripture, Book of Abraham, 3:3)

A PLANET:
“Kolob means 'the first creation.' It is the name of the PLANET'nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God.' it is 'first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. . . . One day in Kolob is equal to a thousands years according to the measurement of this earth” (LDS Apostle, Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428)

Take your pick.....

R. Abanes

Hi RA. Loved the book ONUG

"RA: hey, R. I have just a quick word of correction. Kolob, is the name of the "PLANET" nearest the celestial residence of God. It is not a star (see Brice McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428)."

If Bruce McConkie contradicts Abraham ch. 3, I guess the (proven fraudulent) Book of Abraham would take precedent over McConkie's opinion. :-)

Maybe if they are not Protestant nor Catholic, then they are indeed Christian...

Just a thought.

RUSS: Is it not true that "God" in Mormonism is an exalted man of flesh and bone and hails from or lives on a planet (or throne or residence) near a star Mormons call Kolob?

RA: hey, R. I have just a quick word of correction. Kolob, is the name of the "PLANET" nearest the celestial residence of God. It is not a star (see Brice McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).

RA

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In response to russellwades 10/9/2008 8:00 PM
"My very existence is a miracle...wrought by the power of God through the Atonement of his Son Jesus. The blessings I received were in the name of Jesus and were not through any man's works or righteousness."

"This is what I believe. Here I stand. Any further commentary on Mormonism must acknowledge these fundamental realities about our view of Jesus."

Mr Wades, is it not true that Mormon theology employs Christian terms but visit a different dictionary from Christians to gain their meaning?

Is it not true that Mormonism would have us believe that "Jesus" is the brother of Satan?

Is it not true that "God" in Mormonism is an exalted man of flesh and bone and hails from or lives on a planet (or throne or residence) near a star Mormons call Kolob? Abraham ch 3

Is it not true that "Son Jesus" means the literal offspring of Father God and Mother God?

Are these the "fundamental realities" you wish us to consider?

www.mormondoctrine.net

Dear luke232,

Your post didn't help Mormonism's cause at all. But what you did do for all of us is show what is just beneath the surface of the LDS public image -- i.e., Mormon antagonism against Christianity. It's been around since Joseph Smith:

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Joseph Smith).

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Brigham Young).

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense....It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." "What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing" (John Taylor).

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best. And hope that you will, in time, see things differently.

peace,

R.A.

Mr. Abanes,

Well, I think we have come to the impasse that is so common in these types of discussions. We clearly interpret certain passages of the Bible differently and we both apparently feel very strongly about our interpretations. Despite our differences of belief, we thankfully both have access to God through our prayers and I believe he will mercifully teach and guide the honest seeker of truth back to Him. Thank you for the discussion.

>>> Perhaps changing one word in the Title would help clarify.

RA: You're wish is my command. See, I'm not unreasonable. LoL. The rest of the article holds true, IMHO. Although, again at your prompting, I took out the bit about a "fourth" branch.

I know what I was trying to say, but I can see how it could be confusing. I tend to enjoy long posts, not posts limited to a few hundred strokes. Hence, the length of my books I cited. One = 463 pages. The other = 651 pages.

Anyway, I hope the post is cleaner now for you and others. Your comments are appreciated.

R. Abanes

Ah, thank you. Yes, I did miss the sub-title. Perhaps changing one word in the Title would help clarify. Of course, changing the word "Christian" to "Protestant" probably wouldn't sound as sensational, but at least it would be more accurate.

In your article you appeared to ask a rhetorical question: "How will Mormons categorize themselves now (e.g., a "fourth" branch of Christianity)?"

Anyone who knows anything about Mormonism already knows they do consider themselves as a different branch of Christianity (different from Protestant, Catholics or Orthodox). Surely, you were aware they consider themselves to be part of the Restorationist branch?

Has everyone missed the subtitle?

"Appeals Court Rules Mormon Church Is Outside PROTESTANT Christian Faith"

R. Abanes

I find the title of the article to be misleading, or at the very least not entirely accurate. In no way can you say that LEGALLY Mormonism was declared "Not Christian." The BEST you can say is that it was declared NOT Protestant! You are correct, Mormonism is not Protestant, and it is not Catholic (Orthodox or Roman). But then, it has never claimed to be "Protestant," "Orthodox," or "Catholic". It has, on the other hand, claimed to be a RESTORATION of primitive Christianity. And, in that sense, it does fall under the overall umbrella of "Christianity". Mormonism is not the only Restorationist form of Christianity, btw.

JC,

Did you miss my earlier post? You didn't state my premise. Please re-read my "10/10/2008 11:17 AM": "I never said that BECAUSE this court ruled, then I don't consider LDS Christian. The facts are that LDS is not Christian (not RC, nor EO, nor Protestant)-- the court simply ruled that way."

Please read threads carefully before posting, or else we will be repeating ourselves.

JC: I would rather join forces with you to fight the real evil that pervades our society.

RA: Aside from theology, I'll be the FIRST to agree, and rejoice over, our common views on ethical and moral issues. And I'm sure we would have a very good time helping the poor, assisting the sick, sheltering the homeless, and working for a change in the abortion laws. We can agree to disagree, but we must be honest, open, loving, and willing to hear each other. I believe both my "Christ" and your "Christ" would want that.

But, my friend, as your own last president said, we DO worship different Christs.

R.A.

Many years ago, the Supreme Court, legalized abortion. The famous case known as Roe V. Wade, is fact, its documented, its law. Based on your premise, abortion must therefore be correct. Your premise says: If a court of law says its so, it must be correct. The Scopes Trial of 1925 made evolution a required teaching in every public school.

As a result, does this make abortion or evolution right? As a faithful Mormon, I don't think it does.

So, are Mormons not Chritian because a court of law says so? I don't think so, but at the end of the day, I don't believe it really matters.

I, like you, believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. I, like you, believe that He is my redeemer, my Savior.

I would much rather focus on our common ground, rather than debate you on the merits of a court case. I would rather join forces with you to fight the real evil that pervades our society. I believe that together, we are the only hope this world has.

JN379,

This is what I claimed: RA: "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch" (Acts 11:26). These were monotheists; 1st Century Jews. So, without getting too complicated in a forum where each message is allowed like 1,000 strokes, let's start there.

You did not start there. You sought to go somewhere else. But the starting point is Jewish Monotheism -- i.e., belief in one, and only one, God that exists. This one God throughout the Jewish Scriptures is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. he is the true and living God (Jeremiah 10:10).

As a Mormon, you are a polytheist -- i.e., you accept the existence of other gods in the cosmos. Other true gods that are by nature truly gods. Christians, as the descendants of Jews (spiritual and literal), do not believe in the existence of any other beings that can appropriately be called "gods."

As I said, "let's start there."

R.A.

Mr. Abanes,

Acts 11:26 does not contain a definition of the word 'Christian'. It simply says that the disciples were called Christians. It appears that you are attempting to claim that these disciples believed the exact same doctrine that you are attempting to espouse. Well, maybe they did and maybe they didn't. I don't know how you can seriously claim to know exactly what these individuals believed and then further claim that their beliefs are exactly in alignment with yours. In fact it is almost certain that they did not share all of your beliefs.

It is difficult to deny that the concept of 'deification' was supported by many early Christian writers. Whether it is supported by Biblical scripture is, again, a question of INTERPRETATION (Romans 8:14-18, Matthew 5:48, 1 John 3:2). Again, I ask - why is your interpretation of the Bible or your definition of Christianity more authoritative than mine?

JN379: Is it a succinct definition of the word 'Christian' given by an authoritative source

RA: "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch" (Acts 11:26). These were monotheists; 1st Century Jews. So, without getting too complicated in a forum where each message is allowed like 1,000 strokes, let's start there.

Monotheism is also reflected in the earliest creeds, and the 1st century writings. Mormons = polytheists. Christians = monothests. That's just the beginning.

Please, see INSIDE TODAY'S MORMONISM. You'll get lengthy explanations, complete with documentation and history.

JN379: Nearly all of the differences between the Mormon view of Christ and the "Protestant" view are related to disagreements over the INTERPRETATION of scripture (i.e. Nicene Creed).

RA: This is simply untrue. It is a highly simplistic, partial, and superficial argument that ignores LDS history, proper methods of biblical interpretation, and LDS revelations that usurp biblical authority.

R.A.

Mr. Abanes,

In your earlier response to me you wrote "I am using the definition of "Christian" that dates back to the first century, and indeed, to the Bible itself".

What is this definition? Is it a succinct definition of the word 'Christian' given by an authoritative source (i.e. one of the original Apostles or Christ himself), or is it a collection of Biblical scriptures and quotes from early Christians that you have carefully selected and fit into your preconceived notions? I can do the same thing to support my claim of Christianity. The point is that your definition and my definition are not authoritative in the Lord's eyes. Our views are comprised of our interpretation of authoritative sources (i.e. the Bible). Nearly all of the differences between the Mormon view of Christ and the "Protestant" view are related to disagreements over the INTERPRETATION of scripture (i.e. Nicene Creed). What makes your definition more authoritative than mine?

About me,
http://abanes.com/About_Richard_Abanes.html

And, just fyi, this blog is not about me trying to live up to anyone's standards of appropriate Christian behavior or service. I serve at my church and in my community just as any Christian serves in his church and community.

peace-out,

R. Abanes

rabane, just because I still want an answer

JCB: wow, your such a hater.

RA: What have I said hateful?

Here's some hate: "when the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Brigham Young, JOD 5:73).

Another: "[A]ll other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord's supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, pg. 255).

And: "We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (John Taylor, JOD 6:167). There are many, many more.

The rest of your comments, tbh, are neither respectful, or worthy of comment. I suggest you read my books cited. You'll know who I am at that point. I bear you no ill will, and wish you all the best, my friend. if you wish to discuss issues, that is fine. But no more rude comments.

RA

JCB, JHU, NOY,

You don't worship the same Jesus worshiped by Christians. You have a different Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4). I'm sorry, but many people believe in "a" Jesus, but that doesn't mean it's "the" Jesus of the Bible.

No matter how many times you repeat, "We believe in Jesus as Savior," it doesn't change the fact that the LDS Jesus is not the Jesus of Christianity. LDS and we in Christendom are not in of the same fold -- Christianity.

Argue with the words of Gordon B. Hinckley: "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times'"

So, your LDS Christ is NOT the same Christ revealed to those of us in Christendom. Choose. You can't have both.

R.A.

that was to rabane

JCB: "We believe that if something brings you closer to Christ..."

RA: This is good provided you have the correct/biblical "Christ". New Agers believe in "Christ." Buddhist's believe in "Christ." Scientologists believe in "Christ." Muslims believe in "Christ." Mormons believe in "Christ." But WHICH Christ --- in light of Paul's warning about another Jesus, spirit, and Gospel (2 Corinthians 11:4).

JCB: "I don't ever remember hearing my church bashing other churches."

RA: Your founders merciless attacked Christendom. And more recent LDS leaders who have said that we, in Christendom, don't have the correct concept of God at all, or of our origins -- that we believe in a false god worshiped "in vain," follow "precepts of men" and are disconnected from the "real God." (documentation, see Inside Today's Mormonism, p. 255).

The LDS, since its inception, has taught that Christendom is a sea of false beliefs. So, my friend, please, don't use the we-don't-attack-anyone argument.

:-) R.A.

me again. As I read through the comments, it made me proud to be Mormon. It leaves no doubt who has taken the moral high ground. If by the fruits you will know them, than maybe mormonism is teaching something good. I invite anyone to pray to our Father in Heaven in the name of our Savior and ask Him what He thinks. I know God answers our prayers by the fruits of the spirit. (and all of that is in the Bible, I'm a big fan of that book I might add)

and I miss spelled church in my last comment, sorry kiddos.

To continue our discussion, let's take this over to.......
PoP CuLtURe MIx BLoG
http://richardabanes.wordpress.com/

I'll start out with the fact that I am Mormon. One interesting thing that is taught in our church is to respect all faiths. We believe that if something brings you closer to Christ than it is good. I don't ever remember hearing my chruch bashing other chruches. I think it is great when I talk to a non-mormon and they have an firm belief in our Savior. Through this church I have developed a close personal relationship with Jesus Christ, I feel his presence and love in my life. Is that such a bad thing?

jn3792,

I never said that BECAUSE this court ruled, then I don't consider LDS Christian. The facts are that LDS is not Christian (not RC, nor EO, nor Protestant)-- the court simply ruled that way.

You stated: "I suppose it is all about the definition you ascribe to Christianity. I can also create a definition of Christianity which could exclude whomever I want."

To clarify, I am using the definition of "Christian" that dates back to the first century, and indeed, to the Bible itself. Mormonism was created in the early-mid 1800s through the charisma, imagination, and character of Joseph Smith, who was a known and convicted worker of magickal ceremonies and occult money-digging. That's just historical fact. Documentation is provided in both my books.

As for the "official doctrinal pronouncement" by the Mormon Church, they are superficial in wording, which is convenient. They use the same words Christians use, but with VERY different meanings......"Houston, we have a problem!"

R.A.

PART 2
1) God’s Word is reliable/trustworthy vs. the LDS view (the Bible is only reliable as far as it agrees with Joseph Smith' revelations & the words of LDS Prophets);
2) there exists only one TRUE God (i.e., monotheism vs. LDS polytheism);
3) Jesus was uniquely the Son of God vs. LDS teachings that he was God’s LITERAL firstborn, and as such is our elder brother, who like us, is a created being;
4) Jesus is NOT the spirit-brother of Lucifer vs. the LDS belief that he is;
5) Jesus was virgin born vs. the official, yet rarely discussed belief that Jesus was conceived via sexual relations between Heavenly Father and Mary (Some semantics are played on this point to avoid the official position, and truthfully, many LDS do not know what was taught by their prophets/apostles here).
6) God is not subject to our passions, needs, and desires vs. the LDS view that God has at least one wife (Heavenly Mother).

I hope this better explains some of the issues.

R.A.

Friends,

2 Corinthians 11:4 tells us that there is "another Jesus" that is preached in the world by those who are not Christians -- and they also preach a "different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel."

The verses quoted by those who have disagreed do indeed apply to those who at the outset at least claim to have the Jesus of the Bible. Mormons, however, profess a completely different idea about God and an altogether different notion of the person/nature of Jesus than the biblical teachings on these issues. Mormons diverge from some of the most basic of Christian beliefs:

SEE PART 2 for select difference.....

(Continued)

1) "If you love me, keep my commandments." As usual, the Master answered this question, of who is his disciple, so simply and so clearly as to leave little room to doubt.

2) "By this shall men know if ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

I believe the Savior and the Master Himself has given the definition of a true Christian. Your attempts to add-to, or take away from these simple definitions of a Christian simply don't work for me.

How will Mormons react, you ask? I hope and pray that they react as Christians.

Regards

M: It is indicative of the depths the dishonest anti-mormon community will stoop to to distort the truth.

RA: Actually, there is no need to instantly jump to the dishonesty accusation, which you seemed to be very willing to do -- and very quickly. Making such charges helps no one discuss things civilly.

Per my worldview, the RC, EO, and Prot divisions of faith represent the church invisible -- i.e., Christendom. Your own founder, Joseph Smith, as well as Brigham, and all the early LDS felt the same way. Mormonism back then was NOT a part of Christendom by their own teachings. Thus, the "restored" gospel had to come through JS.

So, I am only repeating what your spiritual ancestors taught. And since LDS is not RC or EO, and now it's been ruled to not be Prot., then we see it is not legally within what is recognized by orthodox Christians as anywhere within Christianity.

In other words, our premises are different. You didn't need to play the dishonest card.

best to ya,

R. Abanes

You stated: "Christ was born of the virgin Mary in a manger in Bethlehem. . . . Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God...that he lived as the perfect example and died on the cross to atone for our sins."

But you define the following in a different way than Christians:

- virgin
- Only Begotten
- Son of God
- to atone for our sins
- only through his grace that we are saved
- stands on the right hand of the Father (who is a man in form, with "a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans" - Joseph Smith)

INSIDE TODAY'S MORMONISM documents how Mormons define these terms in ways that are FAR different than Christians. If you would like to contradict the evidence, then please feel free to do so. Perhaps you can start by explaining Heavenly Mother, God's wife (at least one of them). And explain the concept of spirit babies from Heavenly Father, the firstborn being Jesus Christ, and his younger brother being Lucifer.

I wish you the best of all things,

R. Abanes

R,

Sadly, your testimony is not in the biblical Jesus. Branches of Christianity (despite denominations) hold to distinctions of “Christianity” that are NOT shared by LDS. These beliefs date back to the beginnings of Christianity:

1) God’s Word is reliable/trustworthy (as opposed to the LDS view that the Bible is only reliable as far as it agrees with the revelations of Joseph Smith and the words of LDS Prophets);
2) there exists only one TRUE God anywhere, not just for this planet (i.e., monotheism as opposed to LDS polytheism);
3) Jesus was uniquely the Son of God (as opposed to LDS teachings that he was God’s LITERAL firstborn, and as such is merely our elder brother);
4) Jesus is certainly NOT the spirit-brother of Lucifer (as opposed to the LDS belief that he is);
5) Jesus was virgin born (as opposed to the official, yet rarely discussed, long-standing belief that Jesus was conceived as a result of sexual relations between Heavenly Father and Mary, his spirit daughter).

PART 2>

"Given the fact that it is not Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant, one can naturally extrapolate that Mormonism is not Christian."

And given the fact that San Diego is not Los Angeles, or San Francisco, or Sacramento, one can naturally extrapolate that San Diego is not in California.

Amazing logic.

This is a very dishonest post. The title declares "Mormonism LEGALLY Declared Not Christian". Yet the post admits that a court only declared Mormonism isn't Protestantism. Mormonism freely admits that as a restoration church, it isn't protestant. Catholics aren't Protestants. Eastern Orthodox religions aren't considered Protestant. Yet you admit that both are Christian. However, since Mormons aren't Protestants, they aren't Christians? Your assertion in your title is dishonest and is contradicted by the body of your post. It is indicative of the depths the dishonest anti-mormon community will stoop to to distort the truth.

Furthermore, I believe that it is only through his grace that we are saved, "lest any man should boast." I believe forgiveness only comes when we acknowledge that Christ is our Savior, the only name under heaven by which we can be saved. I believe he only asks: "Follow thou me." I believe he rose again on the third day, that doubting Thomas felt the marks in his hands and sides. I believe that Christ holds the keys of death and hell and that he has ascended and stands on the right hand of the Father.

My very existence is a miracle...wrought by the power of God through the Atonement of his Son Jesus. The blessings I received were in the name of Jesus and were not through any man's works or righteousness.

This is what I believe. Here I stand. Any further commentary on Mormonism must acknowledge these fundamental realities about our view of Jesus.

I am a believing Latter-day Saint--educated in both the secular scholarship regarding its origins as well its doctrinal framework. I know the doctrines of my faith, have read most of the documents (including much of the oft-cited Journal of Discourses) and am quite familiar with the vast majority of critics claims. Yet in this faith, I have experienced the 'testimony of Jesus.' How will Mormons respond?

First, I have find it more useful to state my testimony of Jesus Christ than to debate over "historical Christianity" (I mean, were the Monatists Christian? The Gnostics? Marcion?) Then, if you want to trust that I'm being candid (and I have no way of compelling you to do so), you can judge for yourself how "Christian" I am.

I believe that Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary in a manger in Bethlehem. I believe that Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God...that he lived as the perfect example and died on the cross to atone for our sins.