Warren among CNN Guests who Answer 'What Would Jesus Really Do?'

Michael Ireland | ASSIST News Service | Updated: Apr 11, 2007

Warren among CNN Guests who Answer 'What Would Jesus Really Do?'

CHICAGO -- If Jesus was on Earth today, he'd be hanging out with those suffering from AIDS. That's the view of Rick Warren, Pastor of Saddleback Church in California and author of The Purpose Driven Life.

Warren recently joined T.D. Jakes and Jerry Falwell on a special edition of Larry King Live to discuss modern dilemmas challenging the Christian faith, including the war in Iraq, poverty, and AIDS.  

Guest host Roland Martin, sitting in for Larry King, said: "Since we're in the midst of the holy season, we want to know, do American Christians walk the walk or just talk the talk? We're tackling the burning issues with some of the nation's top ministers, and asking, 'What Would Jesus Really Do?'"

Martin is a CNN contributor and talk show host on WVON-AM in Chicago, Illinois. He is the author of "Listening to the Spirit Within: 50 Perspectives on Faith." Martin has written a commentary for CNN on the question 'What Would Jesus really Do?', which may be found at www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/04/martin.jesus/index.html.

He said: "If Jesus walked the streets of Chicago, New York, Los Angeles and Houston, what would he really say and, more importantly, do about what he saw? The Bible says faith without works is dead, but conversation without action is just lip service. "

Martin added: "The Christian agenda isn't the same as the Republican Party platform, and it doesn't exclude Democrats. God's agenda knows no party."

He also said that as a Christian author and the husband of an ordained Southern Baptist minister, he has grown tired of the unwillingness to broaden the faith beyond a couple of hot-button issues -- abortion and homosexuality.

"So, we decided to put the tough questions to those who claim to speak his truths, Rick Warren, T.D. Jakes, Paula White, Jerry Falwell, and others. They speak to millions daily through their growing ministries. Tonight, they speak to you," said Martin.

Joining Martin at the start of the program were Bishop T.D. Jakes of The Potter's House in Dallas, whom "TIME" magazine once described as the next Billy Graham, and from Florida, Paula White, pastor of one of the largest churches in the U.S., Without Walls International Church.

Martin asked Bishop Jakes: "You make it a point not to be involved a lot in politics. We don't see you hanging out at the White House and always saying, I'm endorsing this person. Why? Why do you stay away?

Jakes replied: "Well, you know, I like to be involved, but I don't like to be controlled by politics.

"When I can float between party lines, I can look after the interests of the people, rather than the political party. And, for me, that's been a wise decision. I recognize that there are other ministers who approach it differently, but each of us have our own callings. And that's been mine."

Pastor Paula White responded:" I believe, just as Bishop just said, that it's my assignment and my calling to speak to the heart of men and women, and to empower them through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to pray for them."

Martin asked about their respective positions on the war in Iraq: "How have you related what we are involved in with your members, your congregation?"

Paula White said: "Again, we live next to a military base right here. The church is located by MacDill (Air Force base). And it has been my position to pray for soldiers who go overseas, their families, to minister during those times of being separated.

"But it is not my assignment to legislate or dictate -- but, again, to go back to the person, meeting their needs, what they are facing, in the absence of a father or a mother or some of the life situations that they're dealing with. And, so, staying effective in our lane of assignment and calling is what I believe we all need to do, and do effectively.

Bishop Jakes said: "First of all, I prefer peace to war, any time we can use diplomacy or some way to avoid the loss of lives. It grieves my heart when I see our sons coming home in body bags, our daughters coming home in body bags, and not only theirs, but the Iraqi people and other people, who love their children as well.

"I serve a lord who is the Prince of Peace. And I believe that he is a peacemaker. Unfortunately, we live in a world where, sometimes, war rises up, because people will not talk things out. They will not follow the Scriptures. They will not follow the principles of the Bible.

"But, whenever possible, if we would live according to the word of God as it really is written to us, if all of us would do it, there would be no war."

Martin then turned his attention to questions about living according to the principles of the Bible.

"Let's talk about that when it comes to money," he said. "A lot of people say that far too many pastors are talking about money. It's all about the gospel of prosperity.

"How do you confront that, because people have said the same thing? They criticize where you live, the house you live in, the cars you drive, the selling of books, things along those lines. What about that issue of prosperity and that principle?"

"You know, I think the thing that a minister has to do is preach a gospel that is balanced," said Jakes.

"In my new book, Positioning Yourself, I take some strong stands with this comment about the gospel of prosperity. There is no such thing as a gospel of prosperity. The gospel is what we're celebrating this weekend, the death, burial, and the resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And it has never changed.

"So, a ministry that focuses totally on prosperity or, for that matter, totally on any one aspect of the Scriptures, does it to the demise of the greater truth of a balanced Gospel. There's nothing wrong with a minister prospering, if they do it properly, they do it legally, they do it morally.

"As in my case, I own several businesses. I own several companies. I'm an author in my own right, and can afford to take care of myself and live my lifestyle. I haven't always had that, but I have always preached the Gospel. We shouldn't be preaching for money, but we should not allow money to stop us from preaching."

Martin asked Paula White: "Does it offend you when a lot forget that there was a pre-Paula White pastor of a large church who went through a whole lot?"

"Well, I know, for myself, I never forget," she replied.

"In fact, I believe true empowerment is reaching your hand out with the principles that have transformed you, and not just telling a person what they can have do. But, as you have learned how to lead a life of empowerment, how to take the word of God, and use it to transform your life, you reach your hand out and give that person the same principles that changed you. And that, for me, has been the transformation. I know what it is to live in that double wide trailer, to turn the corner, not know what utility is going to be turned off. And it's fundamental that you never forget your history tells a lot about your destiny.

"I do believe I can reach people effectively because of the journey that I have taken in life. I understand that pain. But I also understand what it is to be able to take those principles and see them applied and work in your life effectively. And I believe that the truest sense of prosperity, when you ultimately begin to prosper, talking in financial terms, is when you begin to affect another person's destiny."

Martin asked if Jesus was walking the Earth today, what would be his focus?

Bishop Jakes responded: "That's a very difficult question, probably the most difficult question that you asked me today. He said: 'The spirit of the lord God is upon me to preach the Gospel.'

"And I think the priority is to preach the gospel. But then he goes on to talk about to bind up the wounds of the brokenhearted. You know, many times, people will label you for a lot of things. And prosperity was really never my deal. My ministry was ministering to hurting people, and particularly (hurting women).

"'Woman, Thou Art Loosed!" really was the catalyst of my national ministry," said Jakes, adding: "And I climbed on the stage not to talk to people about being rich, but about being healed from abuse and from trauma and that sort of thing. Those were some of the things that Jesus did, but to preach good news to the poor, the acceptable year of the lord. I think he would be ashamed of the bickering that goes on amongst religious people today, how we build careers out of tearing one another down.

"And I think that he would be ashamed of the way that we live today, with so many things that we have to work with, not using the communication tools more effectively to communicate a good message and a positive message, like we're doing today."

Paula White concurred with Bishop Jakes: "I agree with Bishop's mission statement, Jesus was there to preach the Gospel.

"And I would also say that he declared that he came to save and to seek that which was lost. And it literally means to rescue that which was out of position. Sometimes, life will miss-position us. We get lost. We are not on the right pathway.

"And I believe, whatever that wrong pathway is, that God, through his son, Jesus Christ, would come put us back on it, to experience that wholeness, that freedom, that abundant life, just as I have been so transformed and experienced, in fact, am a product of sitting under that Gospel preached by Bishop Jakes, 'Woman, Thou Art Loosed!' that so transformed my life from brokenness, (a) father who committed suicide, sexual and physical abuse, to really being able to stand in front of a mirror and say, I'm OK from the inside out.

"God has designed a life for me. And, at my core being, I'm valuable, I'm worthy, and I was not defined by the externals that happened to me, nor the experiences that took place in my life."

"Here is the toughest question I'm going to ask both of you tonight," said Martin. "How did Jesus and the Easter Bunny get hooked up on the same weekend?"

"You know, I think we do so much damage when we start commercializing these sacred events," said Bishop Jakes.

"The Easter Bunny is a little bit Pagan of a concept, though I don't fight people who want to dye eggs and do their things. Some people do. I don't fight them about that, because, in our country, we have so many diversities of ideologies and concepts, and we respect each other.

"As a Christian, for me, this is a sacred opportunity to remember that Our Lord died for our sins, that he shed his blood, that he rose from the dead on the third day. And it encourages me, as a man of God, to understand that Christianity does not hide its face from pain, but it discusses it openly and unashamedly, and it teaches us to resurrect above our pain, reposition ourselves for the future, and then project our faith into the lives of our children.

"Pastor White, what's the deal, bunny and Jesus?" Martin asked.

She answered: "Absolutely Jesus. It is the most significant season to us, from Passover to Good Friday, remembering the price that was paid. And that price, which is so significant in my life, had an empty love tank, broken, no hope, really didn't have a future or know what it was, but, on that day when I had a defining moment, to realize that there was a day that he died on an old rugged cross, he was crucified, buried in a borrowed tomb, but he rose again on the third day to give me life, changed forever."

Introducing the Rev. Jerry Falwell, Martin said: "He's taken a lot of heat over the years for his conservative views on faith. But the Reverend Jerry Falwell has never been one to back down from a fight, pretty tough cookie. So, where does he stand on what Jesus would do about the war, poverty, global warming?

He asked Falwell: "You have written online that God is pro-war. Would Jesus support the war in Iraq?"

"Well, I don't believe God is pro-war, but I do believe there are just wars," Falwell replied.

"I think World War II was a just war. If we had not taken Adolf Hitler on head to head, we might all be speaking German now. I believe that what Mr. Bush is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is a just war against terror. God hates war, but there are biblically established just wars.

"And, while I have grandchildren old enough almost to go to war, I hope they never have to, but I do support the right of a nation to defend its freedoms and to defend its borders."

"Some folks are suggesting that this is a holy war, and that you have Christian and Muslims being pitted against one another," Martin said.

"Some have suggested the same thing. You have Muslims who are saying that Allah sanctions violence. You even have some Christians who have sort of said that. How do we deal with this fractious relationship between folks from various faiths?" Martin asked.

"Well, this is not a war against Islam," said Falwell.

"Unfortunately, the terrorism, primarily beginning 9/11, or going way back before that, 10 years, has come primarily from Islamic terrorists, not from Islam, but from Islamic terrorists. And this is not a war of Christians against Muslims. It is a war of America against terrorism. And it just happens that, at this point in history, those who are bringing grief to us are Islamic terrorists.

"But it's important that we understand this is not a holy war."

Martin continued: "I want to bring the topic back to our shores -- lots of conversation over the last several years, even this year, as relates to faith, folks going back and forth in terms of abortion, homosexuality.

"You don't see the same type of emphasis on poverty, on homelessness, or dealing with global warming, dealing with health care and education. And, so, it's interesting that you have Christians who are out there fighting for ballot initiatives for abortion and gay marriage, but not those issues. Why are those not as prominent as those two issues? It sounds to me like there's an imbalance there."

Falwell responded: "Well, there are many, many people who have a special calling. I believe that Pope John Paul II had a particular calling towards defending the life, the sanctity of unborn children, and establishing the family as one man married to one woman for one lifetime. I believe that many others have that particular specific calling.

"There are others of us who take it beyond that. We do believe that we should be feeding the poor. That's not to say the pope doesn't agree with that, but it is to say that we do have a tremendous responsibility. I have been pastor of the same church 51 years. And we have a home for unwed mothers. We have a home for alcoholics and drug addicts. We have a prison ministry. We have a home for the homeless. And on the list goes.

"It's what a church ought to be doing."

Martin wanted to know of we are going to see that become a national movement, in terms of what is seen on the other issues?

"Well, the reason is not -- and I doubt it ever will be -- is that it is not controversial and it does not sell newspapers. What sells newspapers is violence and the head-to-head and bloodshed and that kind of thing. And, very frankly, we're not going to get much help from the media in general on the moral and spiritual issues.

"But, as believers, who take the Bible to be the word of God, you can't back down because a Republican or a Democrat opposes it."

Martin then turned the conversation to presidential politics. He asked: "Is there a Christian litmus test for a presidential candidate? Should we be basing our choice on where they stand on faith? "

"I think that the ideal is that we would have a man or a woman of faith who also is right on the moral issues," said Falwell.

"But I have known many women of faith who didn't have a clue regarding national security, didn't have a clue about how to deal with terrorism, had no idea about how to change the federal courts and to defend the unborn.

"And, so, it's like this. I would rather have an atheist who is a neurosurgeon of excellent talents operating on me if I ever need a brain surgery, than to have the best Sunday school teacher in the world who doesn't know a thing about it. I would much rather have the atheist, if that is his specialty.

"We have got to elect a president who, whether he or she goes to church, or which church, or whatever, understands the issues. And the top issue today in our culture is survival. Right now, the war against terror and Islamic terrorism, it is the most dangerous time I have known in my 73 years. I have lived through Hitler, Nazism, Communism. This is the most dangerous time America has faced.

"And the next president has got to have a grip on this gravity of terrorism and the survival of the people, and has got to be willing to take the battle, whether it's to Iraq or Afghanistan, or wherever, to defend our children and children's children."

Martin introduced Rick Warren by saying that he has been quoted as saying "I'm so tired of Christians being known for what they are against."

"You focus on poverty, AIDS, global warming. Why the difference between what you focus on and the religious right?" Martin asked.

Warren said he thinks there's bigger agenda than just what Evangelicals have been known for in the past, which is primarily morality issues.

"But I think that there are social morality issues too that are important that Jesus cared for the sick, he assisted the poor, educated the next generation," he said. "Those are issues that we care about too, and historically Christians cared about education and cared about poverty and cared about justice, and I just think we need to get back to the 19th century evangelicalism or first century Christianity," he told Martin.

"So are you bothered when people say, Rick Warren, part of the religious right?" Martin asked.

"I don't consider myself a part of the religious right. People ask me, I've said many times I'm not right wing and I'm not left wing, I'm for the whole bird," said Warren.

"I'm an American, and you can't have one wing to fly, a one wing bird is just going to fly around in a circle. I think you need both wings. The fact is nobody is right all the time. I am a conservative without a doubt. I am pro-life without a doubt. I am opposed to gay marriage, but those are not just the only things I care about.

"I also care about helping people find jobs. I care about helping people get out of poverty. I care about dealing with diseases like AIDS and malaria and a lot of these other problems that are important too."

"Let's talk about AIDS," said Martin. "You invited Senator Barack Obama to your church to discuss that particular issue, also Senator Sam Brownbeck and Brownback said 'Senator Obama, welcome to my house,' and Obama said,'No this is God's house.'

"So you've got a lot of criticism for inviting Obama. How did you deal with that, and how frankly did you put Evangelicals in check to say, look, he's a Christian but this is an AIDS issue, this is not abortion, this is not gay marriage," said Martin.

Warren said the conference was on AIDS, not on abortion, and so organizers were looking for people who had spoken out publicly about AIDS.

"Barack Obama had taken an AIDS test in Kenya and so I just called him up and I said would you come and be a part of this," Warren said.

Warren continued: "I don't have to agree with everything they believe in order to work with them in a particular area. I don't agree with everything that some of my gay friends agree with and they don't agree with everything I do but we're working together on AIDS.

"I don't agree with everything that the women's feminist movement believes but when they want to fight pornography I'm on their side on that issue. And so I don't have to agree with every personal belief of a person in order to find common ground."

Martin returned the conversation to the war in Iraq. "Reverend Jerry Falwell has said that God is pro-war. What do you make of that kind of stance when Jesus Christ was called the Prince of Peace, but Reverend Falwell would say that God is pro-war?" he asked Warren.

Warren responded: "I tell you what, the Bible clearly states that there's some things worth dying for. I would die for my freedom. I would die for the freedom of my family. I would die for the freedom of America.

"There are some things that are worth more than life, and clearly there are some things worth fighting for. Jesus did say I came to bring peace as a Prince of peace, but he also said I came to bring a sword, and governments are ordained by God to administer justice. There is real evil in the world, and we don't just co-exist with evil. The Bible says we are to fight evil."

Martin suggested that there are people who are criticizing this war and others are saying that it's a good war, it's right and it's just, and that is isPa war against Islam. He asked: "What about this whole notion of us being in the middle of a Holy War, Christians battling Muslims all across the country?"

Warren countered by saying this wass not quite true. "It's not a battle against Islam. It's a battle against a brand of Islam which is actually more political than it is spiritual, and many having been to the Middle East myself and having talked with many Muslim leaders, they certainly don't validate what many Muslim leaders do, they do not validate what al Qaeda believes, because al Qaeda even denies its own Koran.

"And when you get people out there saying we're going to train people to be terrorists who blow themselves up and teaching little boys and little girls to be martyrs, what we need to do is work with moderate Muslims who also believe that that's not martyrdom at all. That's just sheer murder.

"We need to redefine the word martyr. Martyr does not mean I blow myself up to kill you. That's not martyrdom. Martyrdom is when I lose my life to defend my faith. In other words, you kill me because I refuse to renounce what I believe.

"So little boys and little girls or grown men for that matter who that strap bombs to themselves and blow up others, that's not martyrdom in any sense of the word. And I have not found any religion that says that the bottom line in their faith is go blow yourself up. So that's not even true Islam."

"You talk about respect and there are some folks who say we should be stewards of what God has given us, and a lot of pastors focus on money," said Martin.

"You go to some churches and it's about money, money, money, might as well be the O'Jays singing that song. You've been highly critical of prosperity Gospel, you've even called it baloney. Why all of the sudden is the focus so much on money and people are gravitating to bigger houses, more money, cars, material goods. What's up with the prosperity, the prosperity Gospel?

Warren said that fundamentally all of us are all selfish people. "We want what we want, when we want it, and we want it now and we will use anything. Politics can be used for selfish purposes. Education can be used for selfish purposes, certainly business can be used for selfish purposes. And even faith and religion can be used for selfish purposes.

"The point that I was simply making is that when Jesus said I've come to give you life in all its abundance, he wasn't talking about material possessions, because the same time Jesus also said a man's life consists not in the abundance of things he possesses.

"Your value has absolutely nothing to do with your valuables. Your net worth and your self-worth are not the same thing and Jesus clearly did not teach that God wanted everyone to be a millionaire so I repudiate that belief."

Martin also wanted to know if there is something really wrong biblically with having a big house, having a nice car or is it a matter of having excess?

"The answer to that question is I don't think it's a sin to be rich. I think it's a sin to die rich. I think god intends you to use it. Money is to be used and not loved. It is a tool.

"I think you should give it away. I think you should use it. The Bible tells us over and over and over, don't store up for yourselves. Rich is in heaven. You know my wife and are reverse tithers, we give away 90 percent and we live on 10 percent.

"I've been playing this game with God for years, we started tithing 10 percent, and each year we'd raise it over 30 years. Now there's no doubt about it that when you serve God, it brings blessing in your life. Sometimes that is physical blessing. Sometimes it's not.

"But you don't judge your closeness to God on how much you've got in the bank. We're to love people and we're to use money. Now, what happens is if we start loving money, we end up using people to get it and we get the priorities reversed.

Martin said that some of Warren's critics say that he mixes Christianity with pop culture, pop psychology. "What about that particular issue? Does it bother you in terms when they criticize your books and they say it's pretty much Christianity light?" Martin asked.

"Well, actually Jesus said beware when all men speak well of you. The only way to not be criticized is do nothing, be nothing, say nothing.

"The moment you put your shingle out somebody is going to start throwing rocks at it. The truth is, criticism is good for us. It keeps us in check. It keeps us humble. What I do with critics, and there are many, is if it's true, I listen and learn from it. If it's untrue, I ignore it and forget it and ultimately I just remember that god is the ultimate judge my life.

Martin wanted to know what would Jesus be focusing on? What would be his agenda?

" I have no doubt about it that if Jesus were here today, he'd be hanging out with people who have HIV/AIDS. There's no doubt in my mind about that, because they are the lepers of the 21st century.

"People say I don't want to be around it. I don't want to hear about it. I'm afraid I might get it. People are scared to death of it and Jesus hung out with people who had leprosy in those days. He cared for the sick. He assisted the poor. In Luke chapter 4, he gives his agenda and it's basically I'm going to meet the needs of the people around me."

In closing the segment with Warren, Martin wanted to know: When did the Easter bunny and Jesus get hooked up on the same weekend?

"I don't know. They didn't teach us that in the seminary, Roland. I have no idea. All I know is that every holiday, which really started out as a holy day, holiday is a perversion of the word holy day, and every holy day is perverted and secularized and people want to figure out how to make a buck off of it.

"But the truth is, Easter is the greatest significant event in history, in fact, it split history into A.D. and B.C. Even people who don't believe that Jesus Christ died and was resurrected for our sins use Easter as a reference point every single day of their life. When you write a date April 3rd, April 4th, 2007, you're using this -- what's the focal point? It's Easter, because God came to earth and split his try into A.D. and B.C., it's the most significant event."

In his closing remarks, Martin expressed some opinions of his own regarding faith in God.

He said: "Folks, I don't have a time to mince words. In 2007, enough with the people who pimp God. That's right. I said it, pimp God. Instead of focusing on the totality of Jesus, we have Christians who want to make the faith all about abortion and homosexuality. And then we have others who seek God as nothing but a spiritual slot machine. They say a prayer and down from Heaven comes a big house or a new car.

"Faith should be used to break down racial and economic barriers, not solidify them. Don't tell me Jesus would have embraced the sinners and you bar them from the church door. How can people say they love Jesus, but are afraid to speak to their neighbor, eat with a co-worker have their children play with peers across town?

"As we heard tonight, the Christian agenda should be broader than two issues. Let's stop with the nonsense that one political party has a hold on Jesus. We are called to speak truth to power no matter who sits in the White House. Christians, let's stop wondering what Jesus would do to make this world better. The question you need to answer is what am I prepared to do? "

**This article was based on a rush transcript of the Larry King Live program on CNN. The transcript of the interview may not be in its final form and may be updated on the CCN Transcript page at www.cnn.com/transcripts.  While this transcript has been edited for use on this news service, every effort has been made to maintain the accuracy of the original interview as posted to that website.

© 2007 ASSIST News Service, used with permission

Warren among CNN Guests who Answer 'What Would Jesus Really Do?'