David Lewis: Do you think that the Western politicians and media understand the Muslim mentality of jihad [holy war]?
Ariel Sharon: No, I don't think so. As an example, consider the Hamas people like Sheik Yassin, whom Israel released from prison. Yassin said that the Arabs have time on their side. He said that Israel will not exist after the year 2027. Israel has no more than 30 years to exist, because of pressures from the outside, social conflicts, the shallowness of part of the population of Israel within the nation, all that together spells the doom of Israel in 30 to 50 years.
Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian National Authority, on the other hand, don't have much time. They need results now, so they would like to get into an arrangement with Israel, but they are going to try and get all that they want. Israel is willing to compromise, but not to stop breathing. In other words, Israel must not cease to exist.
Israel must look to the future very carefully. We must be very careful not to take unnecessary risks. We must not be so eager to reach an agreement, to make such concessions that would make it much easier for the Arab radicals, who hate us (even the moderates hate us, of course). The United States should not put pressure on Israel, because you live thousands of miles away from this arena of conflict and it is difficult for you to grasp our situation. It is hard for you to imagine the terrorism that hangs over us constantly and the twisted reporting of the media certainly doesn't help the situation.
When the United States of America continues to pressure us for more and more concessions, it encourages the Arab leaders to demand more and more. Some of these concessions would be very dangerous, not only for us, but for our neighbors as well. Yes, we want peace, but it must be peace with security.
I mentioned earlier that some of the Arabs are more moderate toward us for the practical reason that they know that peace would bring prosperity to the whole region. But they are faced by the dilemma that so many Arabs are very hard and they don't want to make any concessions at all. Anyway, we hope for the best and we work toward the day when peace will prevail.
David Lewis: In other words, General Sharon, your concern is for who will win the struggle in the Arab ranks, those like the young people on the campuses of the universities who are in a hurry and are willing to bargain with Israel. Then there are the radical youth who have little interest in talking peace with Israel. Then there is a third group, the old guard, like the Hamas, the Hizbollah, and the Muslim brotherhood. Our question is who shall prevail?
Ariel Sharon: The solution, whatever it is, should be such that would provide Israel time. I thought in the past that we needed an immediate solution, but now I've reconsidered. I think perhaps it is necessary to lower our expectations. I believe that we should try for a temporary state of non-belligerency, where they will have part of the area. We will have to provide them with the possibility to run their lives with less interference from us, as much as possible.
Israel will keep and hold the security areas, especially along the green line (pre-1967 borders). It could be 20 kilometers wide on the east side of the green line and about 10 kilometers on the west side of the green line.
David Lewis: Where do you envision the peace process going now?
Ariel Sharon: I believe peace should go along two tracks. First of all, the political track, that involves negotiation about borders and fences and so on. On the other track is the humanitarian side, where we build relationships, cooperation with security, the economy, welfare, education, and so on. Then we'll see what it is going to bring us.
David Lewis: Surely this would not mean a return to the pre-1967 borders?
Ariel Sharon: I can see you understand our problems. Yes, Dr. Lewis, we always strive for peace, all the time recognizing the dangers involved. It would be very dangerous at this time to even talk about a return to the pre-1967 borders.
David Lewis: General Sharon, in the West the media always talks about the occupied territories. . . .
Ariel Sharon: Yes, occupied territories, but who are the occupiers? Israel did not occupy the territories from 1948 to 1967, so who were the occupiers? The answer is Jordan and Syria. Israel was willing to settle for a lot less land than she ended up with after the 1948 war of independence. Jordan seized all of the land that should have provided the Palestinians with a nation of their own. Israel received a mandate over the land when we took it legitimately in the 1967 war. Even now it is not exactly accurate to speak of the population as being "occupied." Indeed, 98 percent of the Palestinian population is under Palestinian control. Only 2 percent is under Israeli control. That's the situation.
David Lewis: The Western media continually lies about Israel. What we read in the press in America and Canada is such distortion and violation of truth. In a sense we are getting used to that in the West. We say, "Well, that's the media." What is shocking for us is to come here as American Christian Zionists and find that the local Israeli media is full of the same kind of distortion. What can be said about this?
Ariel Sharon: Nothing good can be said about this, but you've seen it for yourself. Look, what can I say about the press? First of all, the press is connected. They tend to listen to each other and say the same thing.
David Lewis: But it seems as if the Israeli press is so self-destructive. They are almost anti-Zionist aren't they?
Ariel Sharon: It is a real problem here, and I don't want to overstate the case, but it is true that even in the Israeli press we have a major problem, a major problem.
David Lewis: Well, we hope with this book to allow Israel to tell her own story. I wrote a book about the Lebanon War in 1982, which went all over the world. It was translated into German and other languages. We're hoping that this current book will offset some of the lies and some of the distortions of the media. We don't want to be seen as attacking Israel, and yet we can't be silent about the extremist left-wing socialist press and their anti-Zionist attitudes. So we have to address this in the book, and yet we don't want to come off looking as if we are against Israel. It is a very big problem to all of us, I guess.
Ariel Sharon: It is a very difficult problem for us as well. Now, Israel is more of a democracy than a democracy [Israel's unique government policies include allowing almost limitless press freedoms; and Arab-Israelis loyal to the PNA serving in the Knesset], you know, and we have a problem here. You see what's already happened here. Part of the Jews became weaker, yet the state of Israel is much stronger now than in the past.
David Lewis: Yes.
Ariel Sharon: But the fact is that part of the Jews in Israel became weaker, and they became weaker due to the fact that their roots became too shallow.
David Lewis: Because they abandoned Judaism.
Ariel Sharon: They went away from Judaism.
David Lewis: That's right.
Ariel Sharon: Many of them don't know the Bible. They don't know anything about Jewish wisdom. They don't know the history of Israel or of the Jewish people. They don't have the feeling of how to express full rights to the land - it's just not in their souls. And that's how we became weaker, that's what happened. But on the other hand, many of the strong Orthodox people who are believers in Zion are getting more and more involved. For example, in the army you see many men and boys wearing a kippah, and they are moving up the ranks into the elite positions. They are becoming stronger, whereas some of the secular Jews became weaker in their Zionism and patriotism.
David Lewis: It is just like what Charles Dickens wrote in his classic novel A Tale of Two Cities: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
Ariel Sharon: You know, Zionism was a giant revolution. It has brought Jews from all over the earth. There were already thousands of Jews living here in the land, but Zionism brought millions to these borders, and molded them into one nation. I believe that we can look at the future with optimism.
David Lewis: That's good.
Ariel Sharon: Israel's first priority is to bring Jews home to this country. We believe that there is still, potentially, a million newcomers who will come from the former Soviet Union, and they are coming.
David Lewis: Yes, they are. You know, General Sharon, this is exactly what was prophesied by Jeremiah, "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers" (Jer. 16:14-15, italics added).
Ariel Sharon: Yes, and there are hundreds of thousands of Jews in France, and millions in America. Our main effort should be to persuade them to make aliyah. [Aliyah is a Hebrew word that means "to return to the land."] We need to allocate not only the means but also the will and desire and determination to provide education. We need to teach the Bible and the Hebrew language, the story of the Jewish heroes. This is what preserves our Jewish heritage, and that will keep them coming back to the land of Israel.
David Lewis: You know this media problem isn't new. I think back to 1982. I took a group of journalists into Lebanon with IDF forces as protection, and I came out and wrote a book about the Lebanon War, in defense of Israel's actions there. It was outrageous what they said about Shatilla and Sabra. The way you were smeared and slandered in the general media and especially Time magazine was absolutely untenable. I recall the first time I ever met you and interviewed you in 1982. You were being heavily attacked by the American media for allegedly leading the "massacre" at Shatilla and Sabra in Lebanon in which 460 Palestinians, including 35 women and children were killed.1 You were being unjustly blamed for this tragedy.2
Ariel Sharon: Well, actually no Israelis were involved in the event. It was Christian Arabs killing Muslim Arabs, but I was blamed for it. I think I must be the first minister of defense in history who had to leave the battlefield and go back to work on his farm because of Arabs killing their own brothers and cousins.
Avigdor Rosenberg: It was retaliation between the Muslims and the Christians. That's why the Christians killed the Muslims.
David Lewis: The Muslims had murdered most of the people living in the Maronite Christian town of Damour, Lebanon. It was the Damour Brigade that went in and did the killing at Shatilla and Sabra, near Beirut. Their motive was revenge.
Ariel Sharon: Let me tell you about the massacre in Lebanon. There was a question as to whether it should be called a massacre. Of course, every life lost was a tragedy. It was an attack against those forces that were trying to overthrow the democratically elected government of Lebanon.
At this point (around 8:15 p.m.) General Sharon was handed a note by Mr. Ra'anan Gissan, his assistant. He was noticeably excited by what he read, and after apologies for cutting our interview short, he excused himself. The next day after the interview we read in the paper that the night before, Sharon was called away from a meeting to meet Crown Prince Abdullah of Jordan (now the King of Jordan).
Notes:
1 This is the figure finally given by the Red Cross, which is certainly not known for any pro-Israel bias. Quite to the contrary, most knowledgable Middle Eastern researchers recognize the anti-Zionist attitudes of the Red Cross organization.
2 Aharoni, Dov, General Sharon's War Against Time Magazine: His Trial and Vindication (New York: Shapolsky/Steimatzky, 1985), p. 90. The extraordinary story of the legendary hero who took on the TIME empire - and won! He fought a lengthy battle for his vindication in one of the landmark trials of American history - and in the process gained the respect and admiration of millions of Americans.
3 David Allen Lewis, Magog 1982 Canceled (Green Forest, AR: New Leaf Press, 1982), p. 54-61.
Excerpt from "The Last War?" by David Allen Lewis with Jim Fletcher, used with permission from New Leaf Press, copyright March 2001.
PHOTOS by AP/Wide World Photos .
