Martin returned the conversation to the war in Iraq. "Reverend Jerry Falwell has said that God is pro-war. What do you make of that kind of stance when Jesus Christ was called the Prince of Peace, but Reverend Falwell would say that God is pro-war?" he asked Warren.

Warren responded: "I tell you what, the Bible clearly states that there's some things worth dying for. I would die for my freedom. I would die for the freedom of my family. I would die for the freedom of America.

"There are some things that are worth more than life, and clearly there are some things worth fighting for. Jesus did say I came to bring peace as a Prince of peace, but he also said I came to bring a sword, and governments are ordained by God to administer justice. There is real evil in the world, and we don't just co-exist with evil. The Bible says we are to fight evil."

Martin suggested that there are people who are criticizing this war and others are saying that it's a good war, it's right and it's just, and that is isPa war against Islam. He asked: "What about this whole notion of us being in the middle of a Holy War, Christians battling Muslims all across the country?"

Warren countered by saying this wass not quite true. "It's not a battle against Islam. It's a battle against a brand of Islam which is actually more political than it is spiritual, and many having been to the Middle East myself and having talked with many Muslim leaders, they certainly don't validate what many Muslim leaders do, they do not validate what al Qaeda believes, because al Qaeda even denies its own Koran.

"And when you get people out there saying we're going to train people to be terrorists who blow themselves up and teaching little boys and little girls to be martyrs, what we need to do is work with moderate Muslims who also believe that that's not martyrdom at all. That's just sheer murder.

"We need to redefine the word martyr. Martyr does not mean I blow myself up to kill you. That's not martyrdom. Martyrdom is when I lose my life to defend my faith. In other words, you kill me because I refuse to renounce what I believe.

"So little boys and little girls or grown men for that matter who that strap bombs to themselves and blow up others, that's not martyrdom in any sense of the word. And I have not found any religion that says that the bottom line in their faith is go blow yourself up. So that's not even true Islam."

"You talk about respect and there are some folks who say we should be stewards of what God has given us, and a lot of pastors focus on money," said Martin.

"You go to some churches and it's about money, money, money, might as well be the O'Jays singing that song. You've been highly critical of prosperity Gospel, you've even called it baloney. Why all of the sudden is the focus so much on money and people are gravitating to bigger houses, more money, cars, material goods. What's up with the prosperity, the prosperity Gospel?

Warren said that fundamentally all of us are all selfish people. "We want what we want, when we want it, and we want it now and we will use anything. Politics can be used for selfish purposes. Education can be used for selfish purposes, certainly business can be used for selfish purposes. And even faith and religion can be used for selfish purposes.

"The point that I was simply making is that when Jesus said I've come to give you life in all its abundance, he wasn't talking about material possessions, because the same time Jesus also said a man's life consists not in the abundance of things he possesses.

"Your value has absolutely nothing to do with your valuables. Your net worth and your self-worth are not the same thing and Jesus clearly did not teach that God wanted everyone to be a millionaire so I repudiate that belief."